I used to have a running discussion with a good friend of mine back in my post-college-staff-member-of-a-para-church-organization-which-will-remain-nameless-Arminian-of-which-I’ve-since-repented days which went something like “What’s the bottom line?” Every other week or so there was a new bottom line. The bottom line is “grace” or “faith” or “holiness”. We got to the point where we began to dispute the bottom line idea but rather to refer to a bottom plane upon which we would drop another plank and take another step. I digress so because I was about to begin what I wanted to call “the bottom-line” with regards to Calvinism but I realize that there is no one line that encompasses the foundation of any system of thought and I wanted to get this disclaimer out of the way…
so anyway…
the bottom-line is “control”. The Calvinist asserts the complete and absolute control of God over all things. I have a dear Arminian friend (God save him) who bristles at this proposition. He then throws around words like “Determinist”, robot, puppet, etc. He can’t fathom (and for the record neither can I – but in a different way from his non-fathoming) how God can have absolute control over all things and still be a just God condemning to hell those who do not come to saving faith in Him. But there it is. The Calvinist asserts (that is Romans 9 asserts) that God is the potter and we are the clay and the potter has the right to do whatever he wants with the clay. That just (as my Poppa would put it) chafes my friends hide. So be it. After all the discussion about free-will and sovereignty and justice and love, etc. etc. etc is done the bottom line is who is the real “decider”? I hate to say it but it’s not you, it’s not me, it’s not even W… God Almighty alone is in control.
OK, followed along with out any problem until the last sentence where you wrote
. Who is W. If you had put the word my before the double you I would have thought you were going to say Wife, and between her and God there are times when you may need to question who your decider is.
If you want to link to DailyKos you’ll get a look at who the decider is. Hold your nose cause it stinks in there.
I lean more towards the Arminian than the Reform side and I have to say that I have no issues with God having total control over everything. Where I guess the difference comes in is in what we think God allows and what he doesn’t. Unless I’m totally off-base, Calvinists believe that God does not cause men to sin, and while He could stop it, He allows it to continue. Arminians also believe that’s the case, but we also believe that God allows us choose Him or reject Him.
If the first example still leaves God in complete control then I don’t see how the second doesn’t leave him there also.
Hey Brian – good to hear from you.
Maybe you can help me out here with the Arminian perspective. From your understanding, do you initiate coming to God or does He call you to himself? Do you believe that because of your sinful heart you have no compulsion of your own to seek God and it is only through his calling you to himself that you do approach Him? If you do believe that God calls those he has chosen to himself then is that by a general calling or is it direct and personal? At what point is the decision yours as opposed to His will?
These are the kinds of questions that I personally struggled with for decades. It’s only been in the past couple of years that I’ve been able to say, I had nothing to do with coming to Christ. He called me to himself and honestly I don’t think I even played a role in whether or not I decide to follow Him. Knowing and understanding how completely and utterly wretched I am I can’t for one minute believe that it is by any volition of my own that I desire to follow Christ as my Lord and Savior, and yet I do. It is all by Him and through Him.
Hey Rong. Not ignoring you, just haven’t had time haven’t had time to type a decent reply. I’ll get to it, I promise.
Hey Brian – You might take offense at what I’m about to say but I ask you to evaluate it and if it doesn’t apply to you realize I’m generalizing and it doesn’t apply to you. When I wrote the above blog entry I was thinking specifically about a particular Arminian friend and from him I extrapolated to Arminians in general. This particular friend wants to be in control. The idea that someone else makes the decisions for him is anathema to him. As Rong is pointing out the general trend that I see that distinguishes the Arminian from the Calvinist is in his belief with regard to who makes the decision with regard to our salvation. Would anyone choose God apart from His first choosing them? When it all comes down to it I think people reject Calvinism not necessarily because of the metaphysical consequences of the position (maybe I’m wrong) but rather the implication that they were somehow helpless and passive in their own salvation is hard to stomach.
Greetings all… I must chime in. I have always considered this debate to be a matter of scope. We look at what we see and what we can understand of the world and of our lives and of the topic of salvation, and can easily surmise from our own limited scope, that is, from our individual perspectives, that we do indeed have a role in our own coming to Christ. I agree with my Unfettered Friend that many reject Calvinism out of an inability to stomache such a lack of control when they can not always *see* the Lord’s control in their day to day life. But the Lord’s ways are oh-so-much higher than our ways, and I believe that a true understanding of His sovereign nature requires a certain *faith* that God is indeed sovereign in all things – even those things that we can not make sense of doctrinally. The Lord’s scope is infinitely broader and deeper than ours, my friends, and so I think we err when we try to rely on our own narrow scopes alone to understand such a huge question (the error that I believe the Arminian view makes).
Rong,
I’ll do my best to answer your questions. Let me first say that I am very sympathetic to the Reform position and for the most part am comfortable with saying “I just don’t know”. However, if I were forced to give an answer I’d likely fall on the Arminian side of the fence that I fancy myself sitting on.
I’ll try to sum up my current understanding :
- We would not seek after God unless He sought us first
- God is constantly calling/drawing people to Himself
- By God’s grace, we have the opportunity to accept or reject that call
- I believe that God reveals Himself to us in a general way(Rom. 1:19-20) and in a specific personal way
Maybe that answers your questions or maybe it just convinces that I’m trying to hold on to two contradictory trains of thought.
Be that as it may, at some point I believe you have to be comfortable with seeming paradoxes that we can’t resolve with our finite minds. And this is one I’m ok with – for now anyway…
No offense taken, oh Unfettered One. Just one little comment to make…
When it all comes down to it I think people reject Calvinism not necessarily because of the metaphysical consequences of the position (maybe I’m wrong) but rather the implication that they were somehow helpless and passive in their own salvation is hard to stomach.
I actually believe that most people reject Calvinism and Arminianism for the same reasons – they believe that their position more accurately reflects the nature of God and man and more closely matches the scriptural evidence. I’m sure there are some people like what you describe but I just haven’t actually had conversations with any of them.
Brian – 1:40 AM in the morning?? I hope that time stamp is because of my server being on EST and you being… up way to late my friend
Thanks for your reply and honestly having read your blog for some time now I pretty much guessed that this is where you were going to draw the line. Like I said, it’s only been in the past couple of years that I’ve moved from your position to the one where I am now. A full blown 5 pointer
Certainly didn’t mean to put you on the spot with my question and I do appreciate your response. Of course we’ll be praying that you see the errors of your ways (kidding)
Traveller – thanks for comment. And I do believe you point out a huge problem that we all go through at some point and that’s to realize that God’s view (scope) is wider than we’ll ever be able to comprehend.
Brian – I have a good friend here at work who leans toward to left politically and as he and I interact we are continually amazed at each others sides caricatures of our position. I was raised “Arminian” and you’ll have to take my word for it when I say that the only Arminians I’ve ever known had a basic recoil reflex against the notion that somehow they were not at least partially responsible for their own salvation.
Whether you recoil from it or not however the underlying assumption with which we disagree is still the same. You appear to believe that you chose God not because of His effectual call but because of something within you that decided it was the right decision. You’re the decider. I believe I chose God because of His effectual call. He decided. My faith is the gift He has given me. So I think I’m going to stick with my first conclusion regarding Calvinism’s bottom line… the question revolves around who the “decider” is.
Rong – Well… it was just 12:30 where I was at – still too late but not quite that late. And I know you were joking, but if Calvinism really is the right position then that’s where I want to be, so pray away.
(I grew up Church of Christ so I’ve actually come a long way since then.)
TUM – I’ll agree with you that yes, the basic disagreement is who decides. My only pick was with the “why” behind the disagreement.
Do you guys read Travis Prinzi’s blog(Restless Reformer)? He’s a Presbyterian but has been looking at a book by Roger Olson on the myths of Arminian Theology. It’s been quite interesting for me to read. If you’re interested you can see his first two posts here and here