OK I need some help here (as if anyone’s really reading these posts). I’ve decided that video games of any sort are not allowed in my home. This means XBox and Internet games, hand held devices etc.
Am I wrong to do this? Please no minimalist arguments that begin “What’s wrong with…”
What’s right and good about them? HELP!!
LOL!! Now this *is* a fun topic.
Just 2 weeks ago, for Christmas, the my Co-Traveller and I gave our kids a brand new PlayStation 2… and a specially chosen game for each of my three older children to go with it!
I don’t get philosophical or existential or any other “-al” when it comes to games. We gave them to our kids because they are fun.
And that’s it.
They laugh, they shout, they band together into teams and go for the victory, the talk about the cool things that happened after the fact over dinner or with friends. Fun!
The negatives that there are (and there are several), I am willing to address head-on as needed. There are many opportunities for life-lessons involved with addressing these negatives, without taking away the fun aspect.
However… do not take my statements above to mean that I think that all households with kids should therefore invest in a Playstation 2 for their kids just for fun. I think it depends on the kids, their ages, temperments, and tendencies, and on the parents willingness to add the gaming element into their day-to-day world. In particular, it might be a very bad idea for a parent who doesn’t get into, understand, or even like video games to give them to his or her children. They would, I think, be very ill-suited to handle the negatives when they appear.
My dear travelling friend (I lament that you have become a traveller by the way…) you have just spoken another word that has become an anathema to me… fun. Well not really considering that I bought the kids a trampoline for xmas…
However I cannot stand when my daughter applies the value of “fun” to any activity she’s asked to participate in as the standard by which she judges it’s worthiness of her involvement.
Therefore I confess a certain amount of knee-jerking to that word alone…
Let me go away and ponder and I’ll respond later after I’m through pulling my foot out of the wall I just inadvertently kicked
I think I’ll teach my children Mumbly peg instead. I mean it looks like a lot of fun
Are you ready for this??
The Co-Traveller and I recently placed a total moratorium on… Trampolines!
I kid you not.
We decided that, despite their “fun” nature, they are just too dangerous given the personalities of our kids and their ages. We don’t even let them go to some of our neighbors houses where trampolines are used in the backyard. She and I have a very strong aversion to trampolines.
Again, I am not *at all* kidding here. Interesting, yes?
Make no mistake about it, we are in agreement here. Fun is not a virute, and it never should be treated as such. Nor is it a right. But it is good. Very good. And it is good for a parent to give joyful activities to his kids. it’s not “not bad” only… it is good to bring joy to your kids. How we accomplish this, however, is as varied as our personalities themselves.
OK, we’ve never had any console games in our house, but I’m personally an avid computer gamer. The biggest reason we’ve never had the xbox, playstation, gamecube in the house is because I always had a computer that the kids could use to play games on. So I don’t think that what we did clarifies this issue for you at all.
The one thing that we’ve always done is limited the amount of electronic entertainment that the kids were allowed to have during the day. 2 hours of TV or Computer during the school week and 3 hours on the weekend. Of course if you were grounded…
one *good* thing is that, in the future, many aspects of war will be battled with electronic controls in hand. If your kids don’t familiarize themselves with these controls – they may end up being grunts who are placed in harms-way.
Given our current enemy and the outlook for the future…give ‘em controls.
Just a thought
perhaps “PotSMOKER” would be a better moniker
On the outside assumption that future military wars will be decided by guys sitting behind controls moving levers, invariably the grunt class will be the class of soldier moving the levers. The leaders will not be the ones sitting behind the levers. So give your children lever training. My children will be giving them the orders one day.
@traveller –
I hate to stoop to the level of the utilitarian to make a value judgement with regards to electronic stimulus however one possible dilemna is that when adding up the postive and negative effects you may have an overall negative value. Again my call for “what is good and right” in this regard…
What current personal benefits are derived from video game consumption? (No abstract off in the future speculations please) What potential damage is being inflicted? What harm to my children is the moratorium (assuming other fun things to do like reading, playing outside, going for walks, swimming, dancing, singing, writing, rug-hooking, etc… such that the fun quotient of any given child is not deficient)
I’m going to need some very serious convincing before I lift the ban…
by the way don’t dodge the issue with things like “when they go to their friends house…” or “when they leave home…” All that is out of my control but while they’re in my house there will be no video games and I will let them know why I’m against them. (which I haven’t said yet… I want to hear the pros first I guess)
Oh so now we’re “stooping” to actually wanting some measurable benefit to playing electronic games. Hmm… Uhm… Ahem… (still thinking)
It allows for physically dis-associative immersion in a distributed entertainment environment. The direct benefit of which is, a more cognizant response to the modern remote workplace.
If you can read between the dripping BS of the above 2 sentences then my actual response is: I cannot come up with one bloody benefit to playing electronic games or for that matter watching TV or going to a Movie – that can’t be better served by reading a book, or playing a game, or going for a walk, or….
BTW – Mrs. Unfettered pointed out that moratorium is technically not the correct word for me to use. I have not had video games previously in the house therefore she suggests I use the word “Ban” in lieu of moratorium. Hey is Mrs. Unfettered says it that’s how it is.
I’ll bite!! I have no problem with this one at all, really. Again, this is probably because I have been a gamer all my life!
1) Interactive Response stuff – helps with eye hand coordination, sports abilities, and direct and peripheral vision.
2) The Synthetic Level Playing Field – the only arena where my little kids have a little bit of a chance to compete with/play along with my older kids. Boosts my little kids’ confidence since there is at least ONE area in which he can go head to head with his older brother without it being a joke.
3) Commonality with Mom and Dad – since both myself and the co-traveller are gamers from our youth, we still get some play-time in with the kids… and can speak the same language.
4) Familiarity with Electronics – the training I have given my boys (even the 4 year old) on the steps required to connect the system, insert/remove DVD game discs, properly setup the TV and VCR, and run the system independently is pretty impressive. The Co-Traveller still can’t do it. My 4-year old can.
5) Work Ethic – Unlike almost any other type of game that a kid can play, serial adventure games on a PC or video game console are brutally endless. No matter how good you get, you always get to a point where you are stuck/can’t figure it out/can’t solve it/can’t win, knowing that there is much more to see further into the game. Several of my kids have a history of being quitters (we’ve taught them in the past tosay “never give up!” to fight this). In these games, though, they quickly learn that they have to keep working and keep working if they are to get better and succeed in the game.
6) Fun – I consider this a very tangible and important benefit. The laughter we’ve shared over some of our new game since Christmas has been pretty well worth the cost of the system (at least).
7) Commonality and Relationship Opportunity with other kids – One of the things that the Co-Traveller and I have always sought is to be the house on our street where all of the other kids want to congregate. We want to be known as the “fun” house. In the future, we plan on having ping-pong tables, a min-fridge with snack stuff, and the like in our basement playroom. We want the neighborhood kids *here*, where we know that they will get a chance to be around two praying parents, where the Lord’s name is spoken often with reverence and with thanks, and where they can be ministered to if they ever have a need.
Now, none of these comments are meant to say that such benefits are exclusive to video games. Obviously not. Many of these same benefits can be found, as Rong said, within sports, or board games, or taking a walk, etc. But nonetheless, these are some of the benefits I have seen.
Understand again, O’ Unfettered One, that I am NOT trying to make the case for you to lift the ban on video games in your house! I support your ban, in fact, because you know your kids and your overall household, and you are following where you think the Lord is leading. But the above gives insight into why I can in good conscience, and without being a minimalist, choose to go the other direction.
So… with regard to your original question, no, you are not wrong in banning video games. You may be, for your home, very much in the right! But I don’t think it’s a clear cut “Law” based decision either way.
~P.S. It makes me skin crawl to sound like I am defending video games… yuck! But the truth is, I played Playstation 2′s “Chicken Little” game with my 4-year old last night! And it was… fun. Perhaps the Unfettered One is right and I have begun my moral decline…
hold on a second – here’s one definition of moratorium – 3. an authorized period of delay or waiting. I think that’s what I was saying. I want to wait (perhaps indefinitely) as I think about the whole issue. I’ll have to have a chat with Mrs. Unfettered….
Moratorium is right – it will be an issue later when your kids want to hang out at a friend’s house. Maybe you can put a moratorium on that too – or move to a sheep camp on the Navajo reservation.
How Video Games Help Children Learn
Notso – I was thinking Lancaster, PA.
Lancaster Amish country might not be a bad idea…
get the Christian gamers T-Shirt
As I’ve pondered the benefits of “gaming” I’ve been asking myself not only what the short-term benefits to my children might be but also the long-term benefits/detriments.
Moderation perhaps is the “key” here but sometimes I see the rising ADHD epidemic and the inability of high schoolers I interact with (I lead a high school bible study in my church) to think more deeply about the Scriptures and I wonder what our incessant immersion in digital entertainment is doing to “us” as a thinking being.
I think I’ll try and “channel” Screwtape once again and see if he has anything to do with this…
If Screwtape were wise, he’d advise Wormwood to make sure your kids indulge in anything with as much excess as you allow. There is a principle in toxicology given to us by the great Paracelsus – “All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison from a remedy”. I think the prinicple applies here for “bad” things but I’m not sure it applies for “good” things (Deut 6). Is balance really the key?
Wormwood will also be advised to make sure and limit the time you spend with your kids.
To sum up the arguments for video game participation I have the following:
1. Interactive Response stuff
2. The Synthetic Level Playing Field
3. Commonality with Mom and Dad
4. Familiarity with Electronics
5. Work Ethic
6. Fun
7. Commonality and Relationship Opportunity with other kids
8. Military necessity
Are there any others?
We need to now ask a few questions about the assumptions behind these assertions.
1. Does the idea that there are positive benefits from video gaming therefore necessitate their participation by my children?
2. Does any positive outcome justify potential negative outcomes (assuming there is any)?
3. How negative would the outcome have to be in order for the moratorium to be justified?
4. Is it a given that the above list contains valid arguments for video gamings “rightness”? Are any invalid?
It seems to me that the above arguments assume a certain necessity for familiarity with technology, etc. in order for one to live a “successful” life in this world. This assumtion needs some thinking over….
Is that the criteria by which we evaluate what activities in this world we are to be involved in?
If we were to take the maxim that our chief end is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever is the above list subordinate to that end?
Does it potentially challenge the ability to reach that end?
Is it possible that there are certain neurological limitations being developed in us and our children that hinders our ability to reach the heights of glorifying and enjoying that we have been given the grace to experience?
my traveling friend I await your wisdom….
@18
Notso –
I think Screwtape is much craftier than that. Read his final toast. He warns the Tempters from allowing their Patients from becoming too extreme for in those cases they might recognize the evil to which they’ve been entangled and repent of it.
Rather I think he might suggest an “Arsenic and Old Lace” approach. Give them the poison a little bit at a time and by the time they are fully dead they will be safely in the Father Below’s kingdom.
If a poison being given to children is not lethal in small does but over time has crippling effects – what father would continue to give that poison to his children – EVEN IN SMALL DOSES?
If there is no long term “debilitating” effect – game away!
I’m not convinced… yet…
Convince me.
My Dearest Wormwood,
Your latest endeavors have greatly gratified Our Father Below. He prattles on and on how well you listened to his advice. Now that you have weakened the spiritual cornerstone of the home you are in, it will be much easier to do your work on the children.
It really was pure genius to get the father involved in on-line gaming. I keep chuckling at the image of him shooing his children away telling them he’s too busy to play a board game. I must bow before your deviousness.
Now since you have the father out of the way, I would suggest using the same tactic on those whiny little brats. Start with simple games of a non offensive nature to keep the woman from becoming concerned. We have time to work them up to the good stuff. And by that time even if the wife brings up an objection the husband will be so immersed in his playing that he won’t see a problem with it and tell her to leave the little dears alone.
Oh my, you’ll have to forgive me, but I’m laughing so hard it’s difficult to continue writing through my joyous tears.
Keep up your excellent work. You’re making your dear uncle very proud.
Very warm regards,
Screwtape
now you’ve got it man!!!!!
chilling…
“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.”
Greetings all!
It seems to me, O’ Unfettered One, that you are trying to codify – make into law – the parameters that we Servants should apply to all digital entertainment (or perhaps ALL entertainment).
Is this not so?
Then is not the argument not one of “to game or not to game” or “to watch DVD movies or not” or “to play Monopoly or not”, but rather, legalism vs. grace? Law versus License? Is this what we are *really* discussing?
And if so, do we not already know the answer from prior experiences? That neither license nor legalism are the answer, but rather the humble pusuit of God’s Will in each circumstance individually, heeding our own consciences and the leading of His Spirit mixed with heavy doses of the Word?
Would you say, gentlemen, that it is possible for a man to spend an evening with his video-game hungry kids playing classic “Frogger” while his neighbor is home with his kids reading “Goodnight Moon”, and for both of them to be within God’s Will for their lives?
For one set of children to spend 7 hours a week solving a PS2 mystery game, while another set spends 7 hours a week practicing soccer, while both of them grow steadfastly in their faith through time with their parents and youth leaders day by day?
I think that if you feel the conviction, after prayer and meditation, to keep video gaming out of your home, O’ Unfettered One, that you absolutely should do just that! But make it neither a ban nor a moratorium, but just a simple rule that you explain to your children in aimed at protecting them from something that you know might not be good for them.
And if you come across a brother who thinks that there are no negatives to any gaming at all, and whose family has gone to the extreme, you should council him and try to help him.
Other than that, I think grace reigns. And as long as our gaming doesn’t cause ourselves or another to stumble, we can all have at it.
What a wonderful discussion! I don’t feel I have much to add, but the Monk keeps pestering me, so here goes.
Whether video games chemically alter our kids’ brains so they can’t appreciate a lengthy rational argument, or the games just keep them away from superior pursuits for a significant amount of time, either way it ends up the same: video games are likely not as good for them as something else would be. Therefore I agree with Monk that they should be on trial.
I would go so far as to say we all know in our heart of hearts that there are superior activities to video games. Even in the realm of entertainment and amusement, books are richer and allow critical reflection which video games do not, and real play with humans generally beats synthetic intelligence or virtual reality. Hey, I like Halo, too, but wrestling with my kids beats it hands down, both for them and me.
That said, video games seem to be just an intensified form of amusement, like TV or books, only more powerful due to their interactive and multi-media format. It’s part of the “stuff” of our culture. What are we to do with it?
I think Traveller has a great point that in the final analysis, this is an issue outside the realm of law. May the Lord give us wisdom to discern what is best for each of us and our children.
Most parents who are concerned enought to choose to take action allow the “stuff” but regulate the amount and/or the content. We do the same with video entertainment or other activities.
Taking this position is interesting, however: are we wimping out, saying video games are inferior but we can only mitigate the effects by limiting the damage since we really don’t want to say a categorical “no” to our kids, or are we saying video games are neutral, and we are being careful to teach our children wisdom in handling the “stuff” of the culture with moderation and discernment?
I don’t know. I tend to think we’re wimping out, but the jury’s still deliberating.
@23
that’s all good and well my traveling friend but you didn’t answer the questions @19
have you been hanging out with your liberal friends again?
It’s not law vs. grace… “Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?” It’s more about whether as a responsible father am I seriously considering the potentially negative effects that small doses of “gaming” may have on my children over time… or TV or videos or whatever for that matter…. it seems like a valid question to ask. Most of the Christian community simply adopts whatever comes down the pike without ever critically thinking about it. I appreciate your input mon frere for it helps us to think more critically about this issue.
@24 – ahh Maestro… for one who prefers to sit back and listen when you do finally “sing” tis like a bird who’s morning song awakens the world from it’s slumber. thank you.
I imagine Screwtape is smugly gratified that we would enter the fray over electronic gaming. The question really at hand is not whether but what our children will fantasize about. I want my son in this declining age to be able to identify and slay the Kings’ enemies with a dry eye and a firm resolve. While we trouble ourselves over mint and rue, we neglect training our sons to shoot terrorists between the eyes and our daughters to love, honor, and bear the children of Christians who possess this skill. At this time fundamental computer skills are as important as motor vehicle skills were in
my long-vanished youth. The intuitive & interactive patois of the video game is going to be the lingua franca of the future computer programming. With increasing processor capacity, menu-drop rather than bit-by-bit encoding will be the language of programming. We are called to dominion in eworld as well as analog land. Let the
children play! Rainbow Six & Ghost Recon are good places to begin.
Deus Vult,
RJBK
P.S. Yes, I am crazy and in exactly the same way John Knox was crazy.
A buddy from church responded to this post as follows:
He said:
“I purused the blog, and I came away with one major observation: these guys have a lot of spare time on their hands!!! It almost looks like the time suck that
are video games.
That, by the way, is my only video game objection. They are a black hole of time, a very enticing digital drug, on screen crack. If my boys had been allowed they would have played all day long. And sometimes when I was home, they probably did. Oh, I guess I have another video game objection: they are by nature unsocial, and become antisocial ultimately. Just you and the machine. Lastly, (I guess I have more) they are a mediated experience, something I’m more and more opposed to. ‘Nuff said.
Keep up the good work.”
I responded:
“Thanks for your input,[named removed until I can think of an appropriate psuedonym] ,although I wonder if Socrates would share your opinion that a discussion of this nature is a time “waster”. I’m finding the mental stimulation extremely profitable.
One question for you – can you explain further what you mean by a “mediated experience”. This is an enticing phrase but I have no idea what you mean by it. Please help me to understand for I imagine if you are opposed to it I will be as well.
One last thing can I post your email on the blog?
Excelsior”
He said:
First, I’m not sure what you are quoting, since I never used the word waste. By time suck I mean something that may be a waste or not which continually draws, ineluctably, more and more time from one. Socrates would definetly approve; unless you think he just liked to hear himself talk.
Actually Wendell Berry is partly my inspiration on this, but also Emerson and Thoreau, as well as my own kids. By mediated I mean not direct or governed by some middle man (usually technology). “Virtual” activities are these kinds of activities to the nth degree and, I believe, prevent us from really being able to participate in the world. I see it all the time, especially in personal relation skills area.
Ah! look at me here, mediated man.
See you on Sunday.”
#26) Not sure how much of what you posted was done so tongue in cheek. If you are truly serious then while I can understand it I can’t wholly agree with it.
While the bullish man in me, would like nothing more than to smite my enemies, I believe we (Christians) are called to be shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. I don’t know about you, but I haven’t seen any doves carrying around SAW’s to deal with the neighborhood kitty.
In this regard I think Screwtape can find just as much joy in your comments as with some of these others. There is a fine line here, and we must guard against the desires of the flesh, the falleness of our hearts, and a personal desire to be righteously indignant and upholding of God’s laws.
If the Liar can’t get us one way, he’ll wait for us to YoYo to the other extreme and snare us just as readily there.
@26 – Rabbi Obi-Wan,
Let me see if I understand your assumptions.You have two arguments both relating to childrens skillsets which is further influenced by their predisposition to fantasizing.
The first skillset has to do with ability to kill. The second has to do with the ability to effectively use a computer in a future setting.
In other words our sons need to be trained to kill the enemy and they need to be trained how to use computers. Do you also assert that they way we will kill in the future is by using the computer as “PotStirrer” asserts in @6 above thus making a connection between the desired skillsets?
To write it more formally:
Proposition 1) Our children will fantasize about something or perhaps our children are fantasizing beings.
Proposition 2)Since they are fantasizers it remains that we are to guide them with regards to the content of that which they will undoubtedly fantasize about.
Proposition 3)It is important that we teach them to fantasize about killing the enemy so that they can do it without remorse, with a clear conscience and with firm resolution.
Conclusion: Although it is not the only way (or is it?) video gaming is an excellent way to incorporate their need? innate compunction? ontologically necessary predisposition? to fantasize and subsequently teach these skills with these desired outcomes.
The second argument appears much simpler. Computers are here to stay and will be the way ALL people function in the future and therefore it is necessary that they know how to use computers in order to communicate (lingua franca), live, function. The proper way to acclimate them and teach them this vital skill is through computer gaming.
Before I go on have I got it right?
Propositions 1 2 & 3: …Yes.
Conclusion: Gaming is not the only method to incorporate the universal tendency of children to faiytales and cowboys and indians with the Kingdoms crying and vital need of stout defenders but it is a very effective way. As to “innate compunction” or “ontologically necessary predisposition” I must quote my less literate brethren and reply “huh”?
Second Argument:The vast majority of all people everywhere are not and probably will not be wired in my lifetime. The world I am acclimating my son to bless God in is not divided by the Ganges or the Yangtze. Once again though gaming is the nearest answer to this training.Not the only one, but you would have to laboriously construct your own curriculum to avoid it.
Is this clearer?
whoops I went back and looked up the words I strung together and … ah shucks Ben ya got me.
I was just trying to say what you said when you said “tendency to fantasize”. I was throwing around some big words in hope like the proverbial poop on the wall they’d stick.
I think I prefer paint-ball, obstacle courses, jousting, fencing and mountain climbing.
The sterile environment of a video game in which the worst pain a boy will ever feel is the numbness in his right thumb from the repetitive pressing of the fire button will never prepare him for the first assault upon his position by a host of screaming Islamicists. He’ll immediately wet himself and flee in terror.
We need men who know that there’s no reset button and victory comes at a greater price than buttocks fatigue and empty snack bowls.